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UBR Problem

Tuning

 
 
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  #1  
Old 01-29-2009
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Default UBR Problem

Most of you know I'm running an 800 based UBR motor this year in Escape. Motor was built by FasTrax UBR to run pump gas. I installed PowerJets as per Curts directions and everything worked/ran great at 4500 ft. here in Gillette.

BTW, sled is supposed to be jetted for 7-10k on mains. I haven't had time yet to pull carbs and check actual size jets installed.

This past weekend, riding @ 8k plus, motor would bog badly on climbs in deep, loose POW. Ran somewhat rough on flats @ elevation, but would wind up into upper range on RPM. On first climb with it, probably 900 ft pull with 4-500 ft elevation change, sled simply ran out of upper rpm power before cresting hill. Went to turn out and sled bogged so bad I ended up with 1st stuck of day. Note that my stock 800 and a XP climbed above tree line already so this wasn't an unclimbable hill by any stretch.

My question is this, any ideas or opinions on where to start checking for problems?
Would bad fuel cause this?
Jetted too fat/lean?
Could clutching cause failure to turn rpm's at elevation?

I want to sort this out without another trip to shop simply so I can learn from it. Tired of sled spending more time in shop than on snow.

BTW for those not familiar with my sled, it also runs twin CPI piping. Have no data on EGT's or such because Digitron wasn't installed yet.

Motor does still start and run, rode it all day after 1st occurance and while it was frustrating at times, it rode POW decent below 8k, nothing impressive, but it ran.
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  #2  
Old 01-29-2009
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did the motor bog or barble?
Bog is lean and barble is rich.
From your description, I'm thinking you are rich and loading up because it ran better lower.
What does your wash look like? or plug color?
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  #3  
Old 01-29-2009
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Plug color was a slight tan to insulator, haven't checked wash.

SD it's only acting up on upper rpm range, low to mid throttle response is good. Try to get it up around 6500 -8000 though while in POW, it falls flat.

All my riding over here in Gillette has been on minimal snow depths, this was 1st ride in deep snow.
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  #4  
Old 01-29-2009
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Plugs are slight tan, brown is optimum, so you are close there.
White or silver is lean / bad
Black would be too rich,
Sounds like jetting is close enough to not cause that problem

High RPM under heavy load it falls flat.
That part almost makes me think clutching.
It's so much easier when I can see it, rather than through a key board.

How is your set up as compared to what Kurt suggests for your elevation and all?
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  #5  
Old 01-29-2009
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Vert, you get any clutching tips from the boys for that motor and style of ridin
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  #6  
Old 01-29-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Student Driver View Post
Plugs are slight tan, brown is optimum, so you are close there.
White or silver is lean / bad
Black would be too rich,
Sounds like jetting is close enough to not cause that problem

High RPM under heavy load it falls flat.
That part almost makes me think clutching.
It's so much easier when I can see it, rather than through a key board.

How is your set up as compared to what Kurt suggests for your elevation and all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polaris1man View Post
Vert, you get any clutching tips from the boys for that motor and style of ridin

Yes shop that installed motor (I'll leave unnamed for now) was supposed to set carbs and clutching as Curt instructed them to. Did they do it, I'm not sure yet. This weekend I'll start pulling it apart and find out. I'll call Curt and get all info for myself and see what I've got here. I don't have a lot of faith in the shop that did the work, and I need/want to learn this shit myself. I paid them nearly 1k for work I should have done myself.

I had thought of clutching too, but never had a sled act like this did. It simply wouldn't rev to upper limit at elevation in POW. Put it in 6"-10" on trail it ran like scalded dog with just a slight bogyness at upper revs.

Thanks in advance for all the remote diagnostics, I know it ain't easy to do.
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  #7  
Old 01-29-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertical_Escape View Post

Thanks in advance for all the remote diagnostics, I know it ain't easy to do.
That's no problem.
It's actually nice to have to think about one some times.
You know how it is. Easy everyday is boring and definately not modded
I know Curt, He'll take good care of you. Tell him Darin from Gravity Worx said hi.

Last edited by Student Driver : 01-29-2009 at 08:49 PM.
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  #8  
Old 01-29-2009
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when you talk elevation change, how much different from your house to where you are riding? could them pipes be a little fussy where they might need to be watched a little closer on jetting and elevation?

how would it run in the hardpack compared to poweder? is there any way the exhaust could have been plugging?
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  #9  
Old 01-29-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Student Driver View Post
That's no problem.
It's actually nice to have to think about one some times.
You know how it is. Easy everyday is boring and definately not modded
I know Curt, He'll take good care of you. Tell him Darin from Gravity Worx said hi.
Curt is a great guy ..... bends over backwards to help. Hope to someday get up there to meet him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madcow View Post
when you talk elevation change, how much different from your house to where you are riding? could them pipes be a little fussy where they might need to be watched a little closer on jetting and elevation?

how would it run in the hardpack compared to poweder? is there any way the exhaust could have been plugging?
From my house in Kemmerer it was 7200 riding at 7800 to 8700 max.
Where I broke motor in was at 4500 over here in Gillette using the PowerJets to correct for elevation.

Not sure on pipes, it wasn't with 850 UBR before it blew. Ran great at same elevations.

Hardpack it ran fairly well, still seemed boggy on upper revs.

I run the diverter on exhaust outlet and we checked it a few times to assure no plugging.

Ask more MC, I know you have a theory forming.
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  #10  
Old 01-29-2009
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I am a flow chart type diagnoser.

how did it run at low elevation?

you can tell jetting on a jack stand in a few moments.

how does the sled run on a jack stand? can you get rpms out of it?

I would start on the jack stand and not even set it down until it gets good there.

if this was my sled I would put it on the stand, warm it up, then full throttle till it shifts out and starts to over rev. then brake and do it again, and again and again, then hit the kill switch and then stop the track. pull the plugs and check color,

if you cant get to rpm you are going to see lots of smoke or the track wind up while the rpms are down.

lets say it didnt rev up well on the stand, before i mess with jetting i guess i would make a drastic change in the clutching just to see if the motor can rev up. once you have the motor turning the rpm you are suppose to, now you can check jetting and start working your way down on jetting, as you come down on jetting you are going to be adding to the clutching as she will gain rpms.

to much clutching will make it seem fat, it will look fat on the plugs, thats why i like to start with clutching to get rpms first. you can always go leaner on jets later, but its frustrating to start seeing gains when making clutch changes and then she ends up lean.

on a normal sled going from 4000 feet to 8000 feet you would drop what, 2 grams on the weights?
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aint no body ripin like me. M to the a-d-c-o-w. rock it hard for my fly ladies. I rock it yes in deed. homies still roll with me. money dont change me


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  #11  
Old 01-29-2009
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I'll try to follow you on this. I like the flowchart analogy, process of elimination.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Madcow View Post
I am a flow chart type diagnoser.

how did it run at low elevation? Ran good on PowerJets, never ran it WOT without.
you can tell jetting on a jack stand in a few moments.

how does the sled run on a jack stand? can you get rpms out of it? Yes, but over here I noticed running ditches, top rpm around 7800. Never peaked it out on stand with no load.

I would start on the jack stand and not even set it down until it gets good there.

if this was my sled I would put it on the stand, warm it up, then full throttle till it shifts out and starts to over rev. then brake and do it again, and again and again, then hit the kill switch and then stop the track. pull the plugs and check color, I can do that this weekend to check plug color off WOT

if you cant get to rpm you are going to see lots of smoke or the track wind up while the rpms are down.

lets say it didnt rev up well on the stand, before i mess with jetting i guess i would make a drastic change in the clutching just to see if the motor can rev up. once you have the motor turning the rpm you are suppose to, now you can check jetting and start working your way down on jetting, as you come down on jetting you are going to be adding to the clutching as she will gain rpms.

to much clutching will make it seem fat, it will look fat on the plugs, thats why i like to start with clutching to get rpms first. you can always go leaner on jets later, but its frustrating to start seeing gains when making clutch changes and then she ends up lean.

on a normal sled going from 4000 feet to 8000 feet you would drop what, 2 grams on the weights?
You're the clutching guru, frankly I have no idea, that's why I'm asking opinions and help on this. I'm going to get Curts recommendations , post here, and get more opinions on it. Then I'll tackle getting clutching right.

As for jetting, I'd rather jet a little lean and use the PowerJets to fine tune for elevation I'm at. Is this a reasonable direction to go or not in your opinion.


As a note, sled consumed a huge amount of fuel for the miles and the actual amount of POW riding I was able to do. I went thru better than 12 gallons of fuel in less than 60 miles. Probably 20 of that was in deep POW.
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  #12  
Old 01-29-2009
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that's why i like the ATACC method, of jetting way rich and taking about bowl pressure to lean out the mixture...

your playing with matches right now, you know your lean, but how many turns on the power jets will it take to compensate?
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Curts method of tuning with them puts the matches away. Open them wide open, then come down till fat bog is gone. I did it at lower elevations and it worked fine. 1.1/2 turns got it cleared up. 1/4 turn open and it would bog. As I understood him, 1/4 turn is equal to 1 jet size.

Seemed an awful lot of change for 3-4k feet elevation change.

Plus main jetting is supposed to be set for 7-10k, supposedly. I'll get his recommendations for jet size and check against what shop installed.

Remember guys, I'm still learning a lot from the info you all are providing. If it was 4-stroke I'd have no problem, I can fix it.
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  #14  
Old 01-30-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertical_Escape View Post
Curts method of tuning with them puts the matches away. Open them wide open, then come down till fat bog is gone. I did it at lower elevations and it worked fine. 1.1/2 turns got it cleared up. 1/4 turn open and it would bog. As I understood him, 1/4 turn is equal to 1 jet size.

Seemed an awful lot of change for 3-4k feet elevation change.

Plus main jetting is supposed to be set for 7-10k, supposedly. I'll get his recommendations for jet size and check against what shop installed.

Remember guys, I'm still learning a lot from the info you all are providing. If it was 4-stroke I'd have no problem, I can fix it.
"As I understood him, 1/4 turn is equal to 1 jet size." Is this at what elevation? I know those twin pipes are finicky as all get up Vert, I had problems just at 1475 ft elevation. I agree with MC, get the clutching to produce the rev's first, consistently where you need it. I'm thinking if you have say 58's in the primary, drop to 54's, just to get the motor to sing some good ol' country Western songs for yah!! No need to lean the carbs just yest, especially with a brand new motor
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Old 01-30-2009
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so what would happen if you went up to elevation, put the sled on a stand, held it wide open then adjust the power jet until the bog went away?
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Originally Posted by Madcow View Post
so what would happen if you went up to elevation, put the sled on a stand, held it wide open then adjust the power jet until the bog went away?
I'm just guessing here, but it should run right provided root problem isn't in clutching.

Right or wrong?

My problem with doing that is really only time. I can tow sleds to Bighorns and reach elevation in question on road. Carry my stand with me and put it on. Unknown whether there is any untracked POW near road, I wouldn't want to get off alone in mtns. with it running like it is now.
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Old 01-30-2009
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Correct!!
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Guys the more we discuss this, the more I'm wondering if clutching isn't root cause. I'll unload sled tonight and put on stand. Set PowerJets to elevation and see how it runs on stand. Go from there. I'm also going to get Curt's thoughts on this today and see what he has to say on it.


It's going to sound stupid, but what all am I looking at to rework clutching. How involved is changing weights? Primary spring? Secondary?

Do we have a tut posted on it?
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Depending on how far off the peak rpm range is, you may be able to just tweak the secondary for the additional 2/400 rpm.
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Old 01-30-2009
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3-4k can be almost 3 jet changes..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertical_Escape View Post
Guys the more we discuss this, the more I'm wondering if clutching isn't root cause. I'll unload sled tonight and put on stand. Set PowerJets to elevation and see how it runs on stand. Go from there. I'm also going to get Curt's thoughts on this today and see what he has to say on it.


It's going to sound stupid, but what all am I looking at to rework clutching. How involved is changing weights? Primary spring? Secondary?

Do we have a tut posted on it?
It's not hard at all given you have a spring compressor. Wonder if that secondary is a Button or roller?
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Old 01-30-2009
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Honestly I have no idea right now, I'll know more when I get into it.

The compressor spoken of is for Primary clutch correct? I don't have one but if need be I'll order one.
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  #23  
Old 01-30-2009
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both primary and secondary... the one from SLP does both and can get adapters for the Team roller...

or you can be like bryan and fab one up....
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Again if needed I'll order one. Could possibly get local shop to use theirs to breakdown and assemble for small fee.
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  #25  
Old 01-30-2009
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OK just spoke with Curt @ FasTrax (Shameless Plug) , he definitely feels it's in clutching for main cause of problem. His recommendation was 1st to shitcan TEAM secondary and go old school Polaris with it if indeed it is a TEAM.

In leiu of that he gave me baseline for the TEAM. 56-38 helix with Red/Black spring. Weights in 58 - 64 range to be determined by trying in field.

1st step obviously is to disassemble and see what I have got to work with. That will be on line for Sat. afternoon/Sun.

Any thoughts?

BTW, if any of you ever consider or buy a UBR/FasTrax product and need assistance, don't hesitate to call Curt and discuss it. He is a great guy to work with and will do what it takes to make a customer happy.
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